Re: The Matrix: Reloaded - *
23If only I'd listened. It was a complete waste. Part of the problem was the packed theater, terrible sound and a pair of loud obnoxious couples behind us. Most of it was the terrible movie though.Kanuck wrote:But please, people, don't see this movie on your own dime, and get the word out.
24
Thank God I'm not the only one. But I'm thinking, anybody else who wants to see it - when Morpheus gets up on a cliff, leave. Come back ten or fifteen minutes later - that scene dragged into eternity, so I'm not entirely sure how long it was.
And when you see a whole bunch of used-to-be agents the second time around, get up and leave. Then you'll be quite satisfied, methinks.
And when you see a whole bunch of used-to-be agents the second time around, get up and leave. Then you'll be quite satisfied, methinks.
TC wrote:as soon as baseball stops being homosexual, i will.
25
I have a friend whose opinion I trust who went Friday night and didn't enjoy it much either--funny thing was, he saw it under the same conditions I saw the first one (which as most of you know, I didn't think too much of at the time)--late night show, lots of teenagers talking, etc etc. The long scenes of drivel-ish dialogue that interrupt those bitchin' action sequences don't play too well after a long day, methinks. So the good news is, maybe it'll age well, which the first one more or less did for me.
26
spoilers possibly
Well let me say that I quite liked Reloaded! Maybe even more than the first one.
This is the rare sequel that doesn't feel like a footnote to the first one. And it's not content with just telling the same story a second time. Reloaded enlarges and then challenges the universe of the first picture. It introduces elements that I hadn't anticipated: how Neo handles the responsibility of being The One, for example. And it assigns a tricky new motivation for Agent Smith that makes him extremely interesting and for my money builds on that tantalizing scene in the first picture when Smith interrogates Morpheus ("I ... HATE this place...").
I think it's commendable that when the Wachowskis could have very easily just made a 2-hour shoot-em-up, they instead made an offbeat, talky, almost European gabfest. Populated by leather-clad actors speaking long monologues of New Agey nothingness. And featuring: a five minute sex scene (holy shit, sex in a mainstream American film!); an aboriginal dance sequence; Neo getting seduced by a lonely dominatrix type wearing a push-up bra; and fractured-time editing.
I guess the key is if what you liked best about The Matrix was the cool scene with Neo and Trinity shooting up the lobby, or the gee-whiz Jedi-wannabe training scenes, you'll probably hate this movie. But Reloaded doesn't have the same mission. It's the next level, with the would-be Messiah forced to question his purpose while at the same time playing his role in a bloody uprising. That in of itself requires a more somber, contemplative tone. It's not a "whoa!" movie. Reloaded is quirky, its pace is leisurely and I left the theater with a big ol' smile on my face.
Well let me say that I quite liked Reloaded! Maybe even more than the first one.
This is the rare sequel that doesn't feel like a footnote to the first one. And it's not content with just telling the same story a second time. Reloaded enlarges and then challenges the universe of the first picture. It introduces elements that I hadn't anticipated: how Neo handles the responsibility of being The One, for example. And it assigns a tricky new motivation for Agent Smith that makes him extremely interesting and for my money builds on that tantalizing scene in the first picture when Smith interrogates Morpheus ("I ... HATE this place...").
I think it's commendable that when the Wachowskis could have very easily just made a 2-hour shoot-em-up, they instead made an offbeat, talky, almost European gabfest. Populated by leather-clad actors speaking long monologues of New Agey nothingness. And featuring: a five minute sex scene (holy shit, sex in a mainstream American film!); an aboriginal dance sequence; Neo getting seduced by a lonely dominatrix type wearing a push-up bra; and fractured-time editing.
I guess the key is if what you liked best about The Matrix was the cool scene with Neo and Trinity shooting up the lobby, or the gee-whiz Jedi-wannabe training scenes, you'll probably hate this movie. But Reloaded doesn't have the same mission. It's the next level, with the would-be Messiah forced to question his purpose while at the same time playing his role in a bloody uprising. That in of itself requires a more somber, contemplative tone. It's not a "whoa!" movie. Reloaded is quirky, its pace is leisurely and I left the theater with a big ol' smile on my face.
This is a snakeskin jacket. And for me it's a symbol of my individuality and my belief in personal freedom.
27
Thing is, the casting of the Architect was awful; a Patrick Stewart-like actor would've been a lot better, because I just couldn't stand listening to the man talk, and couldn't understand a word he said. Now that I've read some online stuff:
[Spoilers]
You mean the architect was watching the interrogation in the first movie? And Morpheus was a representation of everything wrong with the matrix, so the whole "this is the sixth incarnation of the matrix" thing actually made sense. They basically tricked Neo into the whole thing, thereby destroying himself... then everybody repopulated Xion, and the whole cycle started again...
[/Spoilers]
Thing is, you don't pick up on any of that if you walk into the movie without having seen the original recently. Now that I understand it, the storyline is great. But the movie didn't make me understand it, it didn't make the majority of the audience understand it, and therefore it missed its mark badly.
Remove the big long rave scene, or cut 90% of it - however, leave in the sex, because it really establishes the relationship between Neo and Trinity, otherwise the scene with the French bombshell wouldn't be nearly as poignant (or funny!). Reshoot the scene with the architect, recasting him to somebody with a more bearable voice - I don't give a shit if it made sense for the architect to be a droning old man, it put me to sleep, and I couldn't understand a fucking thing the man said. Drastically shorten the scene with the hundreds of Agent Smiths. And the list goes on. The reason I was so disappointed with this movie, is because they took a movie with great potential, and screwed it doggy-style. Hence making this one of those rare occasions where I'm crossing my fingers for an Editor's Cut that's a half-hour shorter.
[Spoilers]
You mean the architect was watching the interrogation in the first movie? And Morpheus was a representation of everything wrong with the matrix, so the whole "this is the sixth incarnation of the matrix" thing actually made sense. They basically tricked Neo into the whole thing, thereby destroying himself... then everybody repopulated Xion, and the whole cycle started again...
[/Spoilers]
Thing is, you don't pick up on any of that if you walk into the movie without having seen the original recently. Now that I understand it, the storyline is great. But the movie didn't make me understand it, it didn't make the majority of the audience understand it, and therefore it missed its mark badly.
Remove the big long rave scene, or cut 90% of it - however, leave in the sex, because it really establishes the relationship between Neo and Trinity, otherwise the scene with the French bombshell wouldn't be nearly as poignant (or funny!). Reshoot the scene with the architect, recasting him to somebody with a more bearable voice - I don't give a shit if it made sense for the architect to be a droning old man, it put me to sleep, and I couldn't understand a fucking thing the man said. Drastically shorten the scene with the hundreds of Agent Smiths. And the list goes on. The reason I was so disappointed with this movie, is because they took a movie with great potential, and screwed it doggy-style. Hence making this one of those rare occasions where I'm crossing my fingers for an Editor's Cut that's a half-hour shorter.
TC wrote:as soon as baseball stops being homosexual, i will.
28
I didn't have a problem with the actor. He's a grandfatherly type who seems harmless enough until you notice the glint of darkness. He gets the job done.Thing is, the casting of the Architect was awful; a Patrick Stewart-like actor would've been a lot better
Thing is, you don't pick up on any of that if you walk into the movie without having seen the original recently. Now that I understand it, the storyline is great.
You're very accepting of this explanation. There are other explanations. The trick of the dialogue in this movie is that people are saying a lot without saying a lot. Are the Wachowskis spelling out everything exactly or deliberately muddying the waters? I think it's the latter. For that matter, I'm pleased anytime a movie makes me think, or makes me want to search out other opinions on what I'd just seen. Much more fascinating than shootouts and car chases and a story handed to you on a platter with nothing left for you to think about and question later on.
You're still assuming that the Wachowskis want you to understand anything at this point. The point of this movie is to question and subvert all that we'd been led to believe in the first film. They've used trickery to make us as disoriented and bewildered as Neo, Trinity and Morpheus surely are at this point. I think it's a brilliant masterstroke.But the movie didn't make me understand it, it didn't make the majority of the audience understand it, and therefore it missed its mark badly.
It's not essential to the main story, but so what? The alternative is to have movies that never deviate from the PLOT and NOTHING BUT THE PLOT. The dance sequence brought the audience into the culture and humanity of Zion and showed that despite their hardships and misery they've not lost hope.Remove the big long rave scene, or cut 90% of it
Drastically shorten the scene with the hundreds of Agent Smiths.
STRONGLY DISAGREE. After the architect scene, which was my favorite in Reloaded, the moments with Smith and his clones were among the movie's best. In fact, my only complaint about the movie is that Smith was used sparsely, a la Darth Maul in Phantom Menace. Now that the Agent is something of a renegade, he's far more dangerous -- or is he to become a friend at one point? He and Neo seemed almost chummy in their scenes. I'm dying to find out what role Smith(s) will play in Revolutions.
Sorry you didn't like the movie, Kanuck, but it exceeded my expectations. Can't wait to see it again.
This is a snakeskin jacket. And for me it's a symbol of my individuality and my belief in personal freedom.
29
Well, glad to hear somebody liked it. 
I disagree with all of that, you seem to make the Wachowski's out to be filmmaking gods or something. But they seemed to forget they were making a movie, whose primary purpose is to entertain. I like a good story just as much as the next guy, but this movie wasn't consumable in its present format. Don't give me the bullshit about the rave scene helping us "understand the culture of Xion", it was just gratuitous nipple shots - and those nipples weren't massive, those shirts weren't soaked and see-through, by accident. It was pure softcore porn, and entirely unnecessary - especially for that length of time. My friends and I started wondering if we'd wandered into the wrong theatre, I was checking my watch, et cetera - it was nothing more than a good opportunity to discuss what had happened up to that point. And that's not exactly a desirable thing in a movie.
As for the architect - perhaps it was cast well. But really, the dialogue wasn't digestable. You're suggesting that the Wachowski's method of muddying the waters was to make the dialog bullshit drivel that no human could ever understand in a single serving? I disagree. Even now that I fully understand what was said there, the waters are still muddied sufficiently to throw in a surprise ending. (However, mark my words, I still think in the end the "real world" will turn out to be another layer of the matrix.) But why did I have to come online and read about what really happened? Why were those scenes so difficult to understand? It was incoherent, with poor enunciation. Far too fast-paced. You can make all the excuses in the world for the directors, but if 90% of their audience isn't going to understand the words being spoken, simply due to poor speaking skills, that's called a failure.
The movie deserved only a single star, because it was a poorly executed movie. You liked it, congratulations; but from what I can see, most people didn't. I didn't. My three friends didn't. Nobody at school did. From the groans, lack of applause, and sounds of relief upon its (semi-)conclusion, nobody in the theatre did. And when everybody in my vicinity laughed upon hearing me exclaim "I want those three hours of my life back," it was a good indicator that they agreed as well. This movie is hard to digest, hard to enjoy, and despite all its great moments, the shortcomings are too glaring, the underacheivement too obvious. Perhaps Reloaded suffered from too much hype, but when a movie feels it doesn't have to write its own name on its movie posters, that becomes its own fault. And as much as I wanted to like it - as much as I'm still trying to convince myself that it was good - it was a bad movie.
And bad movies get no respect from moi.
Edit: one more thing. The movie title is a pun, yet I didn't realize that until well afterwards either. Yet another indication of how hard this movie was to understand. And don't give me any crap about it just being me; this movie's right up my alley, questioning established facts is one of my hobbies (to the dismay of my teachers), my IQ's through the roof, I'm a certifiable genius, blahbity blah blah blah...
I disagree with all of that, you seem to make the Wachowski's out to be filmmaking gods or something. But they seemed to forget they were making a movie, whose primary purpose is to entertain. I like a good story just as much as the next guy, but this movie wasn't consumable in its present format. Don't give me the bullshit about the rave scene helping us "understand the culture of Xion", it was just gratuitous nipple shots - and those nipples weren't massive, those shirts weren't soaked and see-through, by accident. It was pure softcore porn, and entirely unnecessary - especially for that length of time. My friends and I started wondering if we'd wandered into the wrong theatre, I was checking my watch, et cetera - it was nothing more than a good opportunity to discuss what had happened up to that point. And that's not exactly a desirable thing in a movie.
As for the architect - perhaps it was cast well. But really, the dialogue wasn't digestable. You're suggesting that the Wachowski's method of muddying the waters was to make the dialog bullshit drivel that no human could ever understand in a single serving? I disagree. Even now that I fully understand what was said there, the waters are still muddied sufficiently to throw in a surprise ending. (However, mark my words, I still think in the end the "real world" will turn out to be another layer of the matrix.) But why did I have to come online and read about what really happened? Why were those scenes so difficult to understand? It was incoherent, with poor enunciation. Far too fast-paced. You can make all the excuses in the world for the directors, but if 90% of their audience isn't going to understand the words being spoken, simply due to poor speaking skills, that's called a failure.
The movie deserved only a single star, because it was a poorly executed movie. You liked it, congratulations; but from what I can see, most people didn't. I didn't. My three friends didn't. Nobody at school did. From the groans, lack of applause, and sounds of relief upon its (semi-)conclusion, nobody in the theatre did. And when everybody in my vicinity laughed upon hearing me exclaim "I want those three hours of my life back," it was a good indicator that they agreed as well. This movie is hard to digest, hard to enjoy, and despite all its great moments, the shortcomings are too glaring, the underacheivement too obvious. Perhaps Reloaded suffered from too much hype, but when a movie feels it doesn't have to write its own name on its movie posters, that becomes its own fault. And as much as I wanted to like it - as much as I'm still trying to convince myself that it was good - it was a bad movie.
And bad movies get no respect from moi.
Edit: one more thing. The movie title is a pun, yet I didn't realize that until well afterwards either. Yet another indication of how hard this movie was to understand. And don't give me any crap about it just being me; this movie's right up my alley, questioning established facts is one of my hobbies (to the dismay of my teachers), my IQ's through the roof, I'm a certifiable genius, blahbity blah blah blah...
TC wrote:as soon as baseball stops being homosexual, i will.
30
you seem to make the Wachowski's out to be filmmaking gods or something.
Not hardly. They're craftsman who know the rules of the game and when to break them.
I like a good story just as much as the next guy, but this movie wasn't consumable in its present format.
We keep going back to these gripes that the movie is not consumable or too hard to understand. Which I interpret as people being disappointed because the plot isn't as straightforward as the first film's. Meaning, they wanted two more hours of gunfights and martial arts along with the occasional Yoda-esque quip from Morpheus. But they got "The Anti-Matrix" instead. And because the movie's got its own rhythm and decides to challenge the viewer instead of spoonfeeding them simple, mindless violence, they're rejecting it.
I'm surprised as anyone that Reloaded is such a departure from the first. I truly expected more of the same. Didn't read aintitcool.com or any of the pre-release hype, didn't read reviews before seeing it. I went in with no perceptions and was soon excited to find that the movie had a different agenda than the first. The Wachowskis deserve credit because in this corporate culture, movies of this sort are costing millions of dollars in production costs and marketing, which normally leads to the dumbing down of scripts. Yet here's a mainstream franchise production that's got the balls to strike out into unexpected territory. That kind of boldness should be applauded.
Sure, they could have just made the lighthearted, feel-good, more-of-the-same sequel. And it probably would have made money, perhaps even more. But then no one would still be talking about it five years, even one year from now. It'd be forgotten. Yet people are going to be arguing about Reloaded for years to come. And that is a good thing, though you may not see it now.
Don't give me the bullshit about the rave scene helping us "understand the culture of Xion", it was just gratuitous nipple shots - and those nipples weren't massive, those shirts weren't soaked and see-through, by accident. It was pure softcore porn, and entirely unnecessary - especially for that length of time.
You have a pretty puritanical impression of what constitutes porn. Mock the scene if it makes you feel better, but my point stands. It was intended to broaden the portrait of Zion. To show that these people have culture. They're not robots. They live and dance and enjoy themselves. Your chief concern seems to be that the scene went on too long... sure, if all you care about is getting from point A to B in the ever-important plot. But if the viewer wants to spend time with characters and learn something about them and their lives outside of the confines of the story, these kinds of diversions are more than appropriate.
it was nothing more than a good opportunity to discuss what had happened up to that point.
Do you talk on your cell phones, too?
But really, the dialogue wasn't digestable. You're suggesting that the Wachowski's method of muddying the waters was to make the dialog bullshit drivel that no human could ever understand in a single serving?
I don't believe that's the point I was getting at. I didn't grasp every single word the architect said. The scene does go by quickly, but I believe I heard enough to get the basic idea. Which is, everything that Neo has been told up to this point is likely a sham. That's all you really need to appreciate the scene. The rest is how you filter that fact into your appreciation of everything that preceded it.
In most Hollywood movies (the dumbed-down popcorn stuff) this kind of scene would be where we get the Screenwriting 101 payoff, where the Wizard explains to Dorothy how it all came to be. This scene is the inverse of such cliches -- and theoretically, it'd have to be, since we have a whole other movie still to come.
The idea in this scene, is that the architect unloads a ton of information -- speaking in lofty tones and code and wordgames -- onto Neo's shoulders all at once, and Neo literally has to make a snap decision based on the mountain of details he's just been handed. So he chooses. Was it the right choice? Who knows? We'll find out in the third movie. Be patient. In the meantime, digest it a bit and let your mind work around the scene. If that's not your idea of entertainment, then that's OK. Not every movie has the same agenda. Some want to give you simple mindless pleasure. Others want to challenge you. Both have their merits.
Why were those scenes so difficult to understand? It was incoherent, with poor enunciation. Far too fast-paced.
Maybe you were too busy talking to your friends? :mrgreen:
but from what I can see, most people didn't.
Most people think George Bush is doing a good job as president. What's your point? That a movie is only good if a majority of the viewers like it? That's a mighty ocean you're dipping your toe in, Kanuck.
:mrgreen:
This is a snakeskin jacket. And for me it's a symbol of my individuality and my belief in personal freedom.
32
to break in here and stir up some more stuff, read this:
yikesOnce in a while, a film will come along that absolutely inspires a fellow like me. "The Matrix Reloaded," while not quite the most abhorrently anti-White film I've ever seen, tries damn hard to be. As you know from having seen (or having read about) the first installment in the series, the story overflows with symbolic names, images and plotlines, most of which are not very kind to the people whose mythology and heritage spawned the ideas. The first film was anti-White enough, in fact, to inspire a couple of negro homosexuals to become snipers last year. What? You didn't hear about that aspect of the story? I suppose you also didn't hear that the recent University shooting was by a non-White, or that the truckload of suffocated border-jumpers was driven by a negro. But I digress.
"The Matrix Reloaded" takes us once again into the phony world of villainous White agents, lily-White dupes and a couple of freedom-fighting helpers (i.e. the Oracle and the Keymaker, manifested by a negress and a Korean, respectively). However, we also get to see a few scenes in the "real world," Zion; the Utopian neverland toward which all right-thinking humans are expected to aspire. It is 95% non-White. I'm not exaggerating; it's as though every zoo, prison, chicken joint and welfare office was capsized and emptied into this cavernous, Jew-monikered metropolis.
The few White faces I saw were women, elderly men, clumsy kids or traitorous rogues. The powerful, intelligent and righteous folks of Zion are negroes, Asians, Hispanics or some mud-mixture of all three. Even the "White" hero is played by Keanu Reeves, who is half Asian. The most infuriating moment for me came shortly after Morpheus, the negro hero, made a speech to the masses, shouting that "they" have tried, without success, to destroy "us" for over a century, "BUT WE ARE STILL HERE!"
The predominately non-White horde erupts into cheers and applause, then starts pounding on drums, shaking and jiving like mad. The scene, juxtaposed with a tryst between Neo and Trinity, goes on far too long, and shot after shot shows dreadlock-flinging bucks grinding with White and non-White women; the swarming mass of muds continue this softcore display for another five minutes, while a few White men in the theatre squirm uncomfortably in their seats and start to wonder, "Hey...what's wrong with this picture?"
It's well known that the "Matrix" series is full of symbolism, and it has been analyzed in no small detail all around the Web. However, the Arrow Fodder who watch this movie are not likely to understand it, much less spot it. Remember, these are the same boobs who made "Bringing Down the House" number one at the box office just a few weeks ago. They don't know or care that the names Gidim, Niobe, Morpheus and Persephone come from ancient mythology, and that their namesakes are related to what the characters in the movie are like. Likewise, the audience doesn't appreciate the significance of the movie's French ultra-villain being named "Merovingian." And...it is significant.
The average viewer of "The Matrix Reloaded" doesn't have any idea why Cornel West, one of many "kill Whitey" poster boys, was inexplicably given the role of one of the High Council Elders of Zion. Do you suppose it has anything to do with the fact that he has been sufficiently house-trained by Hymie not to say anything bad about them? Is that why producer Joel Silver allowed him a few scraps from their table?
Most of the people who see "The Matrix Reloaded" will enjoy the computer-generated fight scenes, car chases and explosions; they will also sit and scratch their heads when Supervillain "the Architect" (also White) launches into a five-minute exposition as to what it's really all about. In fact, all but the most savvy techno-geeks will be at least a little befuddled by the time the Architect finishes his spiel. Basically, he tells Neo that these little rebellions by humans rise up all the time; this is the sixth one, and it will be crushed by the machines, just like the previous five were. Bummer.
Overall, the movies' messages about reality, fighting the system, free will, etc., are overshadowed when compared with the horrid image they show in the "paradise" of negrified Zion. Only see "The Matrix Reloaded" if you can stomach seeing that many negroes in one setting.
---MARK RIVERS
33
Ok. I've now seen it. Here are some thoughts, with spoilers aplenty:
******************* SPOILERS HEREIN ******************************
The anti-white crap is just that - crap. But it's always interesting to note people's reactions to movies. To me, anyway.
That being said, I'm with kanuck on this - the Nebecudnezzer should have stayed out of Zion/Xion. That entire scene was just horrible. It's like it was directed by someone else; every line was contrived, every scene unnecessary, and with all the wet t-shirts it was more like 'Zion Gone Wild' than anything else. And man did it ever go on and on and on.... I'm serious, when I get a copy of this I'm going to remove that entire 20 minutes or so, re-watch it, and see if the movie works any better for me. But it was amusing to see Morpheus doing his Sirus impression up there. And really, in every other scene we see of Zion (the council, etc.), there is a mix of race, but in this scene it was what, 98% black? Only blacks survived the gen pop? That was a bit odd to me. But again, the "anti-white' crap spewed above is way off; if I wanted to, I'm sure I could write pages on how the only white room in Zion was the control room and how most of the members of the coucil were white, etc....
And really, if you want to get more specific, only 24 people were chosen to re-populate Zion each time. And in this rave scene, I saw no "recepticles" on anyone's body, so I suppose we're to assume that most of these 'Zion Dancers' were born of Zion? In which case "they" must not have chosen a very diverse group to re-populate the city. But even the most ignorant devout racist could not use this effectively to support his theory, as we have no idea the ratio of races that reside in the pods that would be freed. Just silliness, but that's my take on the whole race thing, in short.
On to more fun stuff.
I really enjoyed the movie, minus the Neb in Zion scene. Great opening once again. Sure, the Neo vs. Agents Smith scene was long, but much like the fight scene in 'They Live', the longer it goes on the more amusing it gets to me. And the effect - some of the things the brothers Wachowski pulled off with this were just amazing, even in the face of the first Matrix and the invention of 'bullet-time'. The entire freeway battle was incredible, and the trucks colliding head-on was quite possibly the most visually amazing scene, short of the Trinity bike-jump scene, in the film for me. But my favorite moments were more subtle; the scene with The Archetect, the scene with/existence of The Oracle's Guardian, the whole dinner dialogue with Merovingian, etc. But the Architect scene was easily my favorite in the film, with the dinner scene with Merovingian coming in second. Great, great stuff, and proof that the Wachowski's can still write great dialog. IMHO, the casting was right on. Perfect. I loved his delivery. And the Oracle's Guardian - he intrigues me. I am anxious to find out his greater purpose in this.
The acting: well, it wasn't great. Keanu was much better in this film than in the original, Moss was good, Fishburn seemed to be a characture of himself but still pretty good, Weaving was good, etc. The highlight - once again - for me would have to be the Architect. The lowlight (as far as major characters go) was surprisingly that guy from Oz for me. I love Oz, and I love him in Oz, but in this he was very shallow and plastic. Sure, it was odd seeing him upright for so long, but he was still nigh-painful to watch at times.
One other thing that was puzzling - that boy in Zion that's in love with Neo. The Wachowski's seemed to go out of their way to make sure to pound into the audience's collective head the fact that Neo "saved his life" somehow, thus giving this character some greater importance that has yet to be revealed. Why? That was confusing. But again, I said that the Neb should have stayed out of Zion. Zion should have been hinted at, left more up to the viewer, etc., rather than make everyone's image of Zion that rediculous rave scene.
The trailer at the end of the credits for 'Revolutions' was nothing more than a tease really, but just knowing that there will be a final showdown between Neo and Agent Smith, mano i mano (sure, there are thousands of other Agents Smith watching, but....) is great for me. I can't wait to see how they resolve this whole thing. Frankly, it seemed to me that we should have seen much more of the Sentinels in this film, but I'm hoping that the Wachowski's deliver in the conclusion.
Knowing the blatant biblical symbolism in this, I'd like to sit down and really study 'Reloaded' to get a full grasp of why they did some of the things they did in this film, of what some of the scenes really symbolize. Perhaps there was a Sodom/Gamorrha type of reasoning for showing Zion the way they did; I mean, as out of place as that whole section of movie seemed, there must be a damn good reason for letting it stay the way it did. And there are other scenes I'd like to accurately 'place' in the brothers Wachowski's world of allusion. I'd love to see some essays on this. But I really have nothing to contribute to this train of thought after only one viewing.
One last thing of interest: a friend here at work has an intriguing theory about the ending of the film that I'd like to share. At the point when Neo returns and everyone abandons the Neb to start running from the Sentinels, Neo says, "Wait....something's different. I can feel them....", then turns around and short-circuits the Sentinels. Well, my friend here has what he calls the '13th Floor' Theory - that even though everyone 'returned' from the matrix to 'reality', that they are still in; that as soon as they 'came back' from the matrix to the 'real world', it was nothing more than another layer of the matrix and that they are all still 'plugged in' ala 'The 13th Floor' (aka 'Matrix Lite'). Some of you have started talking about the various layers of the matrix, and perhaps this will click with you too. I didn't get that on first viewing, but I'll pay attention to that next time. It is certainly a curious train of thought....
Overall I'd have to give it **1/2 - *** stars. Very enjoyable, albeit somewhat flawed in parts, but an effective chapter in a trilogy. Certainly not 'Empire' to 'A New Hope', but damn enjoyable.
******************* SPOILERS HEREIN ******************************
The anti-white crap is just that - crap. But it's always interesting to note people's reactions to movies. To me, anyway.
That being said, I'm with kanuck on this - the Nebecudnezzer should have stayed out of Zion/Xion. That entire scene was just horrible. It's like it was directed by someone else; every line was contrived, every scene unnecessary, and with all the wet t-shirts it was more like 'Zion Gone Wild' than anything else. And man did it ever go on and on and on.... I'm serious, when I get a copy of this I'm going to remove that entire 20 minutes or so, re-watch it, and see if the movie works any better for me. But it was amusing to see Morpheus doing his Sirus impression up there. And really, in every other scene we see of Zion (the council, etc.), there is a mix of race, but in this scene it was what, 98% black? Only blacks survived the gen pop? That was a bit odd to me. But again, the "anti-white' crap spewed above is way off; if I wanted to, I'm sure I could write pages on how the only white room in Zion was the control room and how most of the members of the coucil were white, etc....
And really, if you want to get more specific, only 24 people were chosen to re-populate Zion each time. And in this rave scene, I saw no "recepticles" on anyone's body, so I suppose we're to assume that most of these 'Zion Dancers' were born of Zion? In which case "they" must not have chosen a very diverse group to re-populate the city. But even the most ignorant devout racist could not use this effectively to support his theory, as we have no idea the ratio of races that reside in the pods that would be freed. Just silliness, but that's my take on the whole race thing, in short.
On to more fun stuff.
I really enjoyed the movie, minus the Neb in Zion scene. Great opening once again. Sure, the Neo vs. Agents Smith scene was long, but much like the fight scene in 'They Live', the longer it goes on the more amusing it gets to me. And the effect - some of the things the brothers Wachowski pulled off with this were just amazing, even in the face of the first Matrix and the invention of 'bullet-time'. The entire freeway battle was incredible, and the trucks colliding head-on was quite possibly the most visually amazing scene, short of the Trinity bike-jump scene, in the film for me. But my favorite moments were more subtle; the scene with The Archetect, the scene with/existence of The Oracle's Guardian, the whole dinner dialogue with Merovingian, etc. But the Architect scene was easily my favorite in the film, with the dinner scene with Merovingian coming in second. Great, great stuff, and proof that the Wachowski's can still write great dialog. IMHO, the casting was right on. Perfect. I loved his delivery. And the Oracle's Guardian - he intrigues me. I am anxious to find out his greater purpose in this.
The acting: well, it wasn't great. Keanu was much better in this film than in the original, Moss was good, Fishburn seemed to be a characture of himself but still pretty good, Weaving was good, etc. The highlight - once again - for me would have to be the Architect. The lowlight (as far as major characters go) was surprisingly that guy from Oz for me. I love Oz, and I love him in Oz, but in this he was very shallow and plastic. Sure, it was odd seeing him upright for so long, but he was still nigh-painful to watch at times.
One other thing that was puzzling - that boy in Zion that's in love with Neo. The Wachowski's seemed to go out of their way to make sure to pound into the audience's collective head the fact that Neo "saved his life" somehow, thus giving this character some greater importance that has yet to be revealed. Why? That was confusing. But again, I said that the Neb should have stayed out of Zion. Zion should have been hinted at, left more up to the viewer, etc., rather than make everyone's image of Zion that rediculous rave scene.
The trailer at the end of the credits for 'Revolutions' was nothing more than a tease really, but just knowing that there will be a final showdown between Neo and Agent Smith, mano i mano (sure, there are thousands of other Agents Smith watching, but....) is great for me. I can't wait to see how they resolve this whole thing. Frankly, it seemed to me that we should have seen much more of the Sentinels in this film, but I'm hoping that the Wachowski's deliver in the conclusion.
Knowing the blatant biblical symbolism in this, I'd like to sit down and really study 'Reloaded' to get a full grasp of why they did some of the things they did in this film, of what some of the scenes really symbolize. Perhaps there was a Sodom/Gamorrha type of reasoning for showing Zion the way they did; I mean, as out of place as that whole section of movie seemed, there must be a damn good reason for letting it stay the way it did. And there are other scenes I'd like to accurately 'place' in the brothers Wachowski's world of allusion. I'd love to see some essays on this. But I really have nothing to contribute to this train of thought after only one viewing.
One last thing of interest: a friend here at work has an intriguing theory about the ending of the film that I'd like to share. At the point when Neo returns and everyone abandons the Neb to start running from the Sentinels, Neo says, "Wait....something's different. I can feel them....", then turns around and short-circuits the Sentinels. Well, my friend here has what he calls the '13th Floor' Theory - that even though everyone 'returned' from the matrix to 'reality', that they are still in; that as soon as they 'came back' from the matrix to the 'real world', it was nothing more than another layer of the matrix and that they are all still 'plugged in' ala 'The 13th Floor' (aka 'Matrix Lite'). Some of you have started talking about the various layers of the matrix, and perhaps this will click with you too. I didn't get that on first viewing, but I'll pay attention to that next time. It is certainly a curious train of thought....
Overall I'd have to give it **1/2 - *** stars. Very enjoyable, albeit somewhat flawed in parts, but an effective chapter in a trilogy. Certainly not 'Empire' to 'A New Hope', but damn enjoyable.
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Your right but do you know why your right?
8O
8O
"Your just jealous the voices are only talking to ME!!"
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The violence-to-storyline ratio in this movie was the exact same as the first movie - two big fight scenes. The tittyfest-to-storyline ratio was much higher than the first movie, however.O-dot wrote:Because the movie's got its own rhythm and decides to challenge the viewer instead of spoonfeeding them simple, mindless violence, they're rejecting it.
I'm siding with TC here - they shouldn't have made it such an explicit (pun intended) image of Zion. We didn't need a 20-minute nipple scene, they could have spent that entire 20 minutes exploring family life, or the social community, or whatever. Instead, they spent that time showing nipples. Woohoo, what filmmaking prowess.O-dot wrote:You have a pretty puritanical impression of what constitutes porn. Mock the scene if it makes you feel better, but my point stands. It was intended to broaden the portrait of Zion. To show that these people have culture.
Wow, they have nipples in Zion, too? I'm glad I spent twenty minutes learning that.O-dot wrote:If all you care about is getting from point A to B in the ever-important plot. But if the viewer wants to spend time with characters and learn something about them and their lives outside of the confines of the story, these kinds of diversions are more than appropriate.
But seriously, like I said earlier, the sex scene (in a less graphic form) is necessary to show the depth of the relationship between Neo and Trinity. The rest of it was just meant to get a "rise" out of the teenage crowd.
There's nothing I hate more than someone who talks through a movie. But there was nothing else to do during this scene - if I'd wanted to watch porn, I could have stayed home.O-dot wrote:Do you talk on your cell phones, too?
It certainly didn't hurt my appreciation of the movie when I later found out what it all meant. And it wouldn't have hurt this scene to make it easier to digest. Don't respond to that by whining about how that would be selling out/pandering to the masses/dumbing the movie down, it would be none of those. It would just make the scene easier to understand.O-dot wrote:I don't believe that's the point I was getting at. I didn't grasp every single word the architect said. The scene does go by quickly, but I believe I heard enough to get the basic idea. Which is, everything that Neo has been told up to this point is likely a sham. That's all you really need to appreciate the scene.
Let me ask you this: if it had been easier to understand, would you complain that it should have been more monotonous, repetitive, and difficult to get?
Disagree. Neo chose the other door, thereby throwing out that possibility. The architect did pull a Wizard of Oz, he spilled the beans on the whole operation, but this One chose the other door.O-dot wrote:In most Hollywood movies (the dumbed-down popcorn stuff) this kind of scene would be where we get the Screenwriting 101 payoff, where the Wizard explains to Dorothy how it all came to be. This scene is the inverse of such cliches -- and theoretically, it'd have to be, since we have a whole other movie still to come.
You have a point - I do appreciate the scene more now. But without the resource of the Internet, I never would have understood it. They aimed to acheive exactly what you say - the architect unloading a ton of information on poor Neo's shoulders, then forcing him to make a decision right away. But they went too far - they didn't just convey Neo's potential confusion, they caused confusion among their audience. Perhaps when the Wachowskis shot the scene, having written it themselves, they didn't realize that they were doing the scene wrong. But in my mind, they did it wrong.O-dot wrote:The idea in this scene, is that the architect unloads a ton of information -- speaking in lofty tones and code and wordgames -- onto Neo's shoulders all at once, and Neo literally has to make a snap decision based on the mountain of details he's just been handed. So he chooses. Was it the right choice? Who knows? We'll find out in the third movie. Be patient. In the meantime, digest it a bit and let your mind work around the scene. If that's not your idea of entertainment, then that's OK. Not every movie has the same agenda. Some want to give you simple mindless pleasure. Others want to challenge you. Both have their merits.
Then again, considering where it was in the movie, perhaps I was just getting tired and didn't want to hear it... but frankly, it just seemed to not fit.
You don't feel comfortable hearing my differing opinion, so you attack me... how George Bush of youO-dot wrote:Maybe you were too busy talking to your friends? :mrgreen:
TC wrote:as soon as baseball stops being homosexual, i will.
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i just have to say that i don't think anything about the Architect scene was "wrong"; as i said, it was easily my favorite in the film. everything about it - the dialog, the delivery, the scene, what was said, etc. - was exactly right. my one problem with it was Neo's "Bullshit" line. given what was showing in the screens behind him, apparently during the five previous incarnations he gave that line at first very early in the dialog and then progressively later over the course of their discussion. and in this version, he was still compelled to say it, and not at the "end" of their conversation. it seems he's not through growing yet and still prone to such a response. does this mean that there, by definition, must be another incarnation? will Zion fall because of Neo's percentage of immaturity? are they still "in" the matrix?
so many questions, Mr. Wayne, so many questions....
so many questions, Mr. Wayne, so many questions....
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here are some comments/thoughts/analysis from the Blues board that i felt i should post here:
interesting take on the race issue and the rave as well. reading all of that, i tend to agree.
Nayrb wrote:Alright, I saw it again...
So, Zion was not destroyed. I thought they were at the end, and Bane (yes, the guy's name is BANE) was the only survivor of Zion. He, obviously, is Agent Smith. Zany!
Enter the Matrix opens up the story a great bit, so I suggest anyone who can picks it up and plays it... it helps understand a couple of other things.
***ENTER THE MATRIX SPOILER BELOW****
The Oracle says something to Naobi at one point like "Neo is stuck between both our world and yours"... I'm assuming that's why he is in a coma.
Smith is no longer "part of the system" so we don't really know the extent of his powers. When he changes to the other guy, perhaps it's just his mindset going to him and that's why Bane is EVIL in the real world. Who knows?
Good flick.
LazyPenguin wrote:My Theory:
-Ok, Bane(or the only survivor from Zion) IS Agent Smith. Remember when Neo had the dream about that guy about to get on the phone to enter "The Real World" and Agent Smith came through the roof and cloned himself in that guy? Well Agent Smith entered the "Real World" though the phone that way. So the guy lying next to Neo in the end right before it ends is Agent Smith.
-Which begs the questions, how can Agent Smith go into the "Real World" when he is a program? Well, I think it is all a big hoax. I think that Morpheus, Neo, Trinity, all of Zion aren't really out of the Real World. They are all still part of the Matrix. I think that when people start to rebel, the computers pick it up and then they create a new "world" or "program" to make these people think they are out of it. When truly they are not! So I think that EVERYONE is still in the Matrix.
-So if everyone is still in the Matrix, Neo is the only one who is starting to ever get out of it. The Architect(sp?) was lying at the end of the movie about Zion being real people, about destorying it, and about 6 other "ones" before him. Neo right now is STILL in the Matrix but he is becoming the "one" who can get out of it.
-To help clear things up which make this point more belivable..remember at the end of the movie when Neo stops the machines from coming? Well, they were in the supposive "real world" and there Neo does not have his powers like he does in the Matrix. Why would he be able to stop those machines if they were not in the Matrix. That even makes me a stronger believer that they are STILL int he Matrix. All of them. He would not have been able to stop that machine if he wasn't in the matrix.
-In Summary, I think that everyone is still in the Matrix and in the 3rd one they will realize that, and Neo will be the first one to get out. Agent Smith is in Bane's(or the only survivor of the Zion battle) body. I think that would be awesome if all that was true.
Just my Thoughts,
LP
theohall wrote:One counter thought to the matrix within a matrix, or another level of the matrix theory.
The machines use humans as batteries. So those humans are generating electricity. The theory is Neo somehow figured out how to channel the electrical energy in his body in the real world. This would easily explain why he passed out and didn't wake up, since he used a massive amount of energy to stop the machines. So it's still the real world at the end and not another matrix or sub-matrix.
But that's just another thought.
BringBackZezel wrote:Here's my guess:
The matrix/real world is really part of the true matrix. the real world part of it was created as a control for those minds who couldn't conform to the 2nd level of the matrix......
Here's the kicker:
I've figured out why Neo is so powerful: He's a program in the real matrix. He was designed to lead the humans to believe that they were breaking out of the matrix, when in reality his goal is to keep the real truth from coming to the front.....they are all still in the machine's control.
The five before him were all programs which are as humanlike as possible so that they can take on a jesus-like persona. They all fail in freeing all the humans, and then somehow the whole scenerio starts of in a cyclical fashion, hense the name revolutions.
What makes this time different, though is this:
They talk in Reloaded about how when a rogue program is terminated, the matrix just stops recognizing it, but the program itself will not terminate because they do not have the ability to give themselves up for the betterment of the matrix.
The humans lost control of the world because they made machines too well. The AI eventually took over and overran the humans.
Neo's job is to lead the humans to a revolt that will eventually be crushed by the matrix, and the whole cycle will start over, imprisioning the humans forever. Part of this is Neo's lack of the ability to make the toughest choice possible: to give himself or his love up for all mankind. This led to the cyclical downfall of humans each of the first 5 times.
This time, the machines inadvertantly make Neo 6.0 so humanlike that he has the consciousness to give himself for the humans and in that sense is such a good machine that it causes the downfall of the machines.
That would have enough of an irony to be a fitting ending.
This whole cyclical multi-matrix theory would explain another question I've had since the first movie: If the matrix is designed to be at the height of our civilization (the turn of the millenium), then how is it some 200 or so years after the matrix started, it is still 1999.
and some negative:BringBackZezel wrote:LONG
Don't think this was posted yet. Some interesting analysis in here:
http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm
"Going into The Matrix: Reloaded, I wasn't worried if the fight scenes or special effects would measure up to the first film—it was the metaphysics that bothered me. The first Matrix was such a neat allegory of Gnostic philosophy, I was more concerned with how the Brothers Wachowski could successfully extend the metaphor into three films than whether they could pull off even more virtuoso examples of cinematic ass-stomping. What was mindblowing about the first movie, after all, wasn't the fight choreography or bullet time, but its brave assertion that the banal, day-to-day reality we live in isn't the real world. In that sense, all the wire-fu was just the candy coating on the red pill the filmmakers were offering to every high school student and cubicle slave in the world. (Though, since I study martial arts myself, I found the idea of kung fu as being metaphorical for something happening in hyper-reality, a la Thibault's mysterious circle, to be pretty darn appealing.)
Thankfully, Reloaded more than allayed my fears, even if it seems that half the reviewers either didn't understand what the Wachowskis were getting at, or else were only paying attention during the highway chase. Watching the movie, I was personally less impressed by the fists of digital fury than by the Brothers' evident familiarity with the Dead Sea Scrolls and the theology of Origen of Alexandria. Seen in the light of the books they're referencing, the movie's plot is brilliant; of course, to the non-initiate, the characters' actions and dialogue seems arbitrary and incomprehensible, and the exposition is just filler between car crashes. It would seem, therefore, that a bit of exegesis of The Matrix: Reloaded is warranted. But be warned: If you haven't seen the movie yet, don't read on. There are some major spoilers.
Much like that other great Keanu Reeves vehicle, Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey, The Matrix: Reloaded centers around the hero's journey into the Underworld. Frazier, in The Golden Bough, notes that it is a prophetess—in this case, the Oracle—who sends the hero off on his journey, from where he returns with special knowledge. And, of course, that's just what Neo does, though it would have been a while lot more amusing if he'd had Alex Winter along. (The Oracle probably isn't entirely benign, by the way, even though she may not consciously intend any harm: She is, after all, the one who sent Neo on the path to the Core.)
Neo's first task is to rescue the Keymaker (Randall Duk Kim, doing his best Rick Moranis impression) from the Merovingian, who is a daemon—in both senses of the word—left over from a previous version of the Matrix. (The Merovingians were the ruling Frankish dynasty; they were succeeded by Charlemagne's family, the Carolingians, and then by the Capetians, who thought they were descended from Christ.) The guy in the health food store where I buy my granola and soy milk thinks that The Merovingian was one of Neo's predecessors, but all the explanation I need, as well as the way I understand his obvious fascination with human pleasures, is found in Genesis 6:4—"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them. . ." According to various sources, including Kabbalah, this mating of men and angels (here, a computer program from an earlier version of the Martrix) is what produced various monsters, such as the vampires and wraiths that serve the Merovingian. Dante, bringing a Christian sensibility to the proceedings, placed these monsters in his Inferno. Thus, though the Merovingian is sort of an antediluvian remnant of the former world, he's also (as is shown by the fact that his wife is named Persephone) kind of like Hades, the holder of the keys to the underworld. What the Keymaker does, much like the golden bough the Sybil gives Aeneas, is open doors and permit Neo access to the underworld—or, in this case, the Core.
After the requisite battles and explosions, Neo gets into the Core and finds The Architect. Considering that The Architect built the Matrix, you might think that he's God. Of course, he's nothing of the sort. In Gnostic theology, it is Satan, not God, who has created the world in order to imprison humanity. It is also the Architect who is unleashing the Sentinels to destroy Zion; that is, beginning the Battle of Armageddon. It is my prediction that in the third and final film, it will be revealed that there is a power behind the Architect, and that he is the one who sent the One into the Matrix. It is also my prediction that this guy will look a lot like Neo.
The important thing is choosing what to believe from the raft of condescending exposition that the Architect inflicts on Neo. He says, basically, that though ninety-nine percent of humans believe in the illusion of the Matrix, there is that troublesome one percent (comparable to the few awakened Gnostic true believers) who refuse to believe in the created world. This tends to produce massive amounts of instability, and crashes the system. (Not coincidentally, most of the people in Zion seem to be black or Hispanic, which makes perfect sense: If you're a white suburban Matrix resident, driving your Matrix SUV to your Matrix golf club, why doubt the nature of reality?) The solution is that they allow the dissidents to escape to Zion, which they can then periodically destroy. They have also created the Prophecy of the One, who is in fact a device sent by the machines into the "real" world so that his knowledge of humanity may be integrated into the system in order to further perfect the Matrix-illusion, and then allowed to re-start Zion so that the cycle can begin again. The idea of multiple creations and a cycle of created and destroyed worlds is, needless to say, also found in theologies as wildly variant as the Mayan and the Buddhist.
The idea that the Prophecy—and Zion—were just another means of control is lifted right out of French philosophy. The first movie made use of Baudrillard's Simulacra and Simulation; this movie seems to be dipping into Foucault and Derrida, who wrote that the systems of power and control are all-pervasive, and language is one of the ways they make their influence felt. The Prophecy is, like all prophecies, speech, and thus language. More importantly, it is a religion, and, as John Zerzan writes, the purpose of a religion is to manipulate signs, that is, words, for the purpose of control. Zion is the longed-for millennial promised land; by keeping the war between good and evil foremost in their hearts, even the freed humans are kept from doubting their own world, from thinking too hard about why things are the way they are.
Understanding why things are the way they are requires an understanding of another holy text: Asimov's Laws of Robotics. The machines, as demonstrated by Smith's need to try to kill Neo even after being "freed," don't have free will. (Likewise, in Gnostic theology, angels and other such divine beings also don't have free will—only humans do.) The bit about the machines needing human bio-energy to survive, as Morpheus (the dreamer) explained in the first movie, is (#$@%!). The machines keep humanity alive but imprisoned, even after taking over the world, because they were created to serve people. In other words, the machines would like to destroy humanity, but they CAN'T. Instead, they need a human to make the choice.
As the Architect reveals, Neo is not the first One, but rather the sixth. Why the sixth? The answer is that Neo's five previous incarnations represent the Five Books of Moses that make up the Old Testament. Neo (representing Christ, and thus the New Testament) differs from his five predecessors in his capacity to love. In the work of Origen of Alexandria and other Church Fathers, it is love ("eros" in Greek) that compels Christ to come down from the heavens to redeem humanity. Furthermore, "neo" means "new"—as in "New Covenant." In Neo, the machines have finally found the iteration of the One who will make the illogical choice of saving Trinity and dooming humanity. [Note to the theology geeks who've been e-mailing me: I know the difference between eros and agape, but Origen used both terms for reasons I'd have to delve into pre-Socratic philosophy to explain.]
This is the Architect's real purpose in giving Neo a choice between two doors. At once all human and all machine, rather than being a device to refine the Matrix into a more perfect simulation of reality, re-found Zion, and thus continue the endless cycle of death and rebirth—as the Architect says he is—the purpose of the One is to be manipulated into destroying all of humanity. However, not having free will themselves, the machines are not able to comprehend it in others—and thus Neo, being also human, is a bit of a wild card. It is Neo's destiny—as was Christ's in Origen's theology—to break the cycle of death and rebirth, and offer humanity a new future. This is shown by the fact that, by the end of the movie, Neo (and also, incidentally, Smith) gain power over machines in the "real world"—which shows that he has power not only over the first—level simulated world of the Matrix, but also the second-level simulation of Zion."
kodos wrote:Blah. This movie was a big let down. I'm not a huge fan of the first, but I found it enjoyable. This was not enjoyable. It was a poorly constructed movie. Here's my review from another board...
What a crappy ass movie... to quote the great Homer J. Simpson...
Homer: Save a guy's life, and what do you get? Nothing! Worse than nothing! Just a big scary rock.
Bart: Hey, man, don't bad-mouth the head.
Marge: Homer, it's the thought that counts. The moral of the story is a good deed is its own reward.
Bart: Hey, we <got> a reward. The head is cool.
Marge: Then... I guess the moral is no good deed goes unrewarded.
Homer: Wait a minute. If I hadn't written that nasty letter, we wouldn't've gotten anything.
Marge: Well... Then I guess the moral is the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
Lisa: Perhaps there is no moral to this story.
Homer: Exactly! Just a bunch of stuff that happened.
Read as deep as you want, this movie was simply a cash in. I don't know what kind of crap they can come up with in the third to justify this crap, but I'm not holding my breath.
It just, it just didn't work. It stumbled from sequence to sequence with no flow. It constantly stopped dead in it's tracks to add in extended fight scenes for no reason. Oh, I needed to test your kung fu. Oh hi, I'm 100 agent smiths and I'm here randomly to kick your ass. Here are a bunch of pretentious annoying french guy lackeys, beat them up. Here come some freaky ghost guys, boy, they are freaky.
None of the action scenes advanced the plot in any way. They could have skipped the entire movie and had the conversation with the architech and we would have gotten the same effect. It was sorta like the brothers got together on a Saturday and jotted down a bunch of "wicked cool ****" they wanted to see, and then cobbled together an excuse to get it all in.
And all the psuedo-intellectual, 15 year olds at the coffee house, micro philosophy lessons that we got bombarded with grated on my nerves.
"Whoa, dude, so maybe like, it's all cause and effect and like, dude, maybe because we are dependent on machines and stuff we are like, living in a sorta Matrix in the real world, and whoa dude. I mean whoa."
BLECH! Blech I say. I wasn't a huge fan of the first, I thought it was a crappy movie with refreshing and creative action scenes and art direction. The action in this movie, overall, was rather stale. We've seen this stuff before. We saw it in the first movie, then we saw it in a million clones, and now we see it again.
...and another thing. What was the deal with the trailer showing us just about ever cool shot in the movie? There were few surprises in the SFX department because the trailer showed them all. The best snips of the 100 agent smiths fight, the best snips from the highway chase (except for the head on semi collision, which was cool), the best snips of the twins, etc... I don't think there was single surprise left. It was just filler to get to the payoff, which we had already seen.
Not a good movie. Far from it. Craptacular.
the whole thread is here. that's some interesting shit about the dead sea scrolls.....Airshark wrote:Well, I just saw it today, as I waited for my company to pay for our whole department to go, rather than plunk down my own hard-earned cash.
Every criticism that I heard before seeing the flick was completely justified. The movie would have been improved massively if it was simply 50% shorter. There were several characters who should have ben completely edited out of the plot, and all the Kung-Fu was stupid - not one fight scene settled anything. Question: did any named character die in one of these fights? Two unimportant albino lackeys get bonked, a bunch of people so unimportant that they're not even named (the Merovingian's cast of clowns) get killed, etc - if these guys had never been in the film to begin with, the plot wouldn't have been set back one iota.
That said, the movie was also about a million times better than I expected. The fact that I was thinking about some of its deeper meanings later tonight, hours after seeing it, means that it must have made more of an impression than I thought.
And then I get to this thread. If BBZ's quoted stuff above is really the driving force behind the writing of this film, the third movie has the potential to be the greatest movie ever made (and I'm not throwing that around lightly - if Revolutions can tie up this plot, it'll certainly be better than Citizen Kane). These guys would be geniuses of the first water. The key phrase in BBZ's copied exposition is "Using humans as batteries is (#$@%!)." It seems to me that if the Matrix and the One are really about cycling control by machines who have no free will of their own, and the third movie can make it clear that's the case (I can just see Neo being asked "You didn't believe that nonsense about human batteries, did you?"), it will be a revolutionary film. What if it turns out that the machines are really acting benevolently in all this, and the "revolution" by people in the "real world" is the real threat? It'd spark a lot of debate, and a lot of that debate would be thoughtful discussion about the true nature of religion and "benevolent control". I would cheerfully pay to see this movie made.
But then my own personal matrix resets, and the cynic in me starts betting that the third movie will be a mindless kung-fu romp with a nonsensical ending.
interesting take on the race issue and the rave as well. reading all of that, i tend to agree.
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more matrix reactionism:
Bush equated with Hitler in 'Matrix' sequel?
and,
Bush equated with Hitler in 'Matrix' sequel?
and,
sheesh.this crap wrote:‘Matrix Reloaded’ villains draw fire
May 14 — Fans are eagerly awaiting “The Matrix Reloaded” — but it’s made some people very unhappy. The villains in the flick are a pair of white-skinned, white-haired, red-eyed twins, and groups representing albinos say the movie unfairly stereotypes pigment-challenged individuals.
“FOR THE LAST 40 years filmmakers have used albino characters as villains, and they’re almost always vicious, inhuman characters, depicted as freaks,” says dermatologist Vail Reese. (Read his comments on skinema.com.)
Dr. Jim Haefemeyer of the National Organization for Albinism and Hypopigmentation tells The Scoop that the group has sent letters to movie-maker Warner Bros., but that the studio has not responded.
“They’re not albinos,” a Warner Bros. rep snapped to the Scoop. “They have dark eyebrows and black lips.”
When The Scoop helpfully pointed out that dozens of publications — from Variety to Time magazine — had identified the villainous twins as albinos, the spokeswoman said, “We don’t call them albinos. They’re dead. That’s why they’re pale.”
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I dunno. I have to see any such scene before I can make a comment on it. I'm responding to the scene in Reloaded as it is. Not to what some think it should have been. The filmmakers made choices to present the architect scene as a dense collage of information. I was entertained and challenged by the scene while watching it and believe it served its purpose in the larger whole. I suppose I can see why others were left disappointed by it. But they are watching it through their own prism of what they find entertaining. From my perspective, I don't have a problem with it.Let me ask you this: if it had been easier to understand, would you complain that it should have been more monotonous, repetitive, and difficult to get?
So they did the scene wrong, but you appreciate it? I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or not. If you had to look up someone else's explanation of the scene to appreciate it, that doesn't speak well for the film, which should stand on its own. It's like David Lynch films (not that the Wachowskis are on the same level as Lynch, I might add): They occasionally are abstract and at times hard to follow, yet I still love them, even if I don't grasp everything Lynch is trying to say. And yes, there are people who've gone to the trouble of trying to decipher every single little element of his movies. I've read some of these interpretations, and they're fascinating and all, but do they help in my own appreciation of his movies? Maybe, but it's all kind of irrelevant because they're someone else's interpretation. Not mine. Mine is what counts as far as my appreciation of the movie goes.You have a point - I do appreciate the scene more now. But without the resource of the Internet, I never would have understood it. They aimed to acheive exactly what you say - the architect unloading a ton of information on poor Neo's shoulders, then forcing him to make a decision right away. But they went too far - they didn't just convey Neo's potential confusion, they caused confusion among their audience. Perhaps when the Wachowskis shot the scene, having written it themselves, they didn't realize that they were doing the scene wrong. But in my mind, they did it wrong.
In the case of Reloaded, the movie didn't entertain you. Yet you've come across an interpretation that seems to satisfy some of your questions. But is that going to really matter the next time you watch the film, if ever? It still didn't entertain you.
Movie-theater talkers ought to be attacked :mrgreen:You don't feel comfortable hearing my differing opinion, so you attack me... how George Bush of you
Seriously, Kanuck, I wasn't attacking you. It's just a spirited discussion.
This is a snakeskin jacket. And for me it's a symbol of my individuality and my belief in personal freedom.
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Which in turn wrote:"I saw it. The TV monitors show Nazis, Hitler, and an atomic explosion, and somewhere in the midst of all that the face of George W. Bush can be seen for a second or so. Why would such a peace-loving president so emotionally engaged with the struggle of the common man ever be included alongside such dark images? What could the filmmakers have been thinking? Is it too late to start a boycott of this film? ... Maybe if enough pressure can be exerted, they can have the offensive image removed before they press the DVD!"
This would be hilarious if it weren't meant to be serious.
